Author Topic: If completionists are so wrong in this game...  (Read 3336 times)

ProEJockey

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If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« on: July 07, 2012, 09:50:20 AM »
I would like to know how the devs would LIKE us to play.

I am a completionist.  I am not afraid of hardcore coming up, I look forward to it.  I am not afraid of spending money, I have a job and do not mind spending money on things I enjoy.  I do not have OCD, I just like to take my time and make sure i have enjoyed every part of the game as much as i cab before having to move forward.  I just want all of my bars caught up before leveling.  Is that so wrong?

I've heard so many arguments against doing this,  I am told that was not the intention when designing the game.  I am told that by allowing completionism for people like me, it would ruin the game for others.  I just don't understand the reasoning behind that.

PSC is listed as an RPG after all.  I look at all of the best RPGs out there.  Games that defined the genre: Skyrim, Diablo, Zelda, Borderlands, are several of the most recent successes.  They all have a good storyline, they are all fairly open to explore or play any way you like.  You may have to choose a certain specialty in some, but not all of them.

If I want to duel and not get owned, I can do that.  My skill is maxed.  If I want to heal my friends, I can do that very efficiently, my skill is maxed.  If I want to have all of my weapons upgraded before I get new ones, I can do that, my scavenge and trade skills are maxed.  I can fill any role, lead or support.is that weird?  Is that wrong?

Now the recent updates have solved many of these issues.  For that I am extremely grateful.  But recent events and discussions in GC, the forums, and even in our own SH have me confused.  Why is there such an aversion to completionists?  Why is it considered weird or the wrong way to play?  I'm just confused and would like to understand it better.

Thank you.  I intend for this thread to be an open discussion, not to tell people they are playing the right or wrong way.  Your comments are greatly appreciated.  I want to be able to understand both sides of this issue.

Dauntless

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 12:25:29 PM »
I don't think, or am not aware of anyway, anybody complaining that 'completionism' is wrong. Certainly a non completist is very much aware of the fact that keeping skills somewhat equivalent is the best way through the game. But thats the thing, you dont need to be a completist to advance through the game. I for instance very rarely have all my weapons upgraded and my current duel is like 73% win ratio (all time) and its only that low due to long periods of duelling toughs for fame. So certainly you don't need to be a completist, its not necessarily the 'best' way to go through the game.

So yes there are many ways to go through the game, and nobody has any right to say the way you or I or anybody else chooses to go through the game is wrong, its personal choice.

The issue ( i feel) is that due to lots of additional content, completists couldn't play the way they wanted. So completists complained that their play style was not good enough or rather not compatible with the evolution of the game. So the game has had to change to accomodate the playstyle. of completists. So thats where the bitching comes in i think. You don't have to go through the game as a completist and its by no means neccesarily the best way to go through the game, but the game has had to change to accomodate the completionists. I don't think you can even say the majority of players are completionists, certainly the petition thread was as full as naysayers as it was completionists. Though that maybe badly represented as you are only sampling the vocal on one thread there.

Also hardcore players need us all to hurry up and go hardcore to make the hardcore arena bigger and better. So there is natural opposition to completists in that respect, the slow style of completists is limiting the fun the hardcore players can have. The game shouldn't of course force people to go hardcore juut to suit the high end credit buyers (though I can see why MDI might be inclined to cater a game around the 'whales') but i also feel a lot of the 'fear' of hardcore lies with the completists as they are trying to play a 'perfect' game and there is a fear that going into hardcore could disrupt that 'perfect' game. Ironically, most hardcore players are also completists.

The good news is that the devs seem to have come up with a happy compromise in accomodating the completionists. We get less events (boooooooooooo as grendel said its truly bizarre when a community complains there is too much content!) but will now see vast improvements in the storyline arc and side missions releevant to stories so fingers crossed we will still get lots of yummy new content.

But yeah thats my two cents. The game has had to change to accomodate completionists when its not necessarily even the majority of players or the best playstyle, and thats why non completionists maybe arent too happy witht he vocal completionists. But the devs have reached a good compromise so two thumbs up to MDI

If what I say upsets you, I do not apologize. I do not believe in encouraging stupidity.

Burmey

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 09:41:25 PM »
Completionists in this game aren't a bad thing, and I'm not sure if these conversations are as frequent as your post suggests.  Most psc veterans have pretty solid stats across the board. 

In fact, most of the bickering I've heard towards MDI lately is that frequent events make it difficult to balance stats / gear upgrades. 

This was of course before the update dauntless just mentioned a moment ago. 


Miss_Nox

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 03:27:21 PM »
I have no problem with completionists. It does, however, puzzle me in an ever changing, very much alive game such as PSC. For example, when I started I'd missed a ton of events and so, much as I like the idea of having everything, it was impossible for me. Of course, knowing they'll be repeated with an unlimited time limit does change some things, so who knows what the future will hold.

The fact is that you don't need everything maxed (only your duel) to do well in the game. Just so long as you're not leaving skills and upgrades so far behind. The fact is that this is a survival game. If you just level and level and leave your skills to advance naturally, you'll do okay, but not great. You'll probably not have much money and you'll never be anything special. I'm not referring to people who camp for a bit, get their skill levels close enough and then move on. I'm talking these poor bastards that are say...level 30 with their skill barely into the teens. I get the feeling that a lot of players like that quit, either because no one informed them of skill importance or they just never listened. The social aspect of the game isn't just to make friends but for that experience from wizened players.

Just like life.

I think of PSC as a social experiment that could be comparable to what would happen in an actual post-apocolyptic senario. The strong players learn and stick with game. They help out lower level players, they contribute to their SH, and hone their skills every day. The weak players selfishly do whatever they want, disregard, or never ask for help. They treat PSC like a single player game and, as far as I can tell, don't make it far past level 30 without intervention.

Though I'll confess to liking the idea of the Mountie mission being indefinite. I was camping when it started and just broke camp last night. Had there still been a deadline, I would have missed it. I'd made peace with that fact, though. I knew there would be other missions. Now that no mission will have a deadline...I dunno. Kinda makes it less of an event and more of just another mission. I feel no encouragment to finish it quickly, even if I may get a stronger version of the weapon. Fuck it, I'm a good scavenger. I can handle upgrades. Make the deadlines longer, sure. Maybe 30 days, but forever seems a bit much.

I think a lot of people feel like the latest update was influenced by a bunch of whiners. While I understand these people have probably sunk a lot of money into this game, they don't speak for all of us, even those of us who may be completionists, perfectionists, or serial campers. They also seem to be most likely to bite the hand that feeds.

Mind you, Jockey, nowhere in this post am I referring to you. Just sort of venting some thoughts that have been rattling around in my head for awhile. You seem like a mature, balanced player.

I am preparing for the firing range, as I know I'm voicing unpopular opinions and I'm only lvl 28, with barely two months of play under my belt.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 03:38:47 PM by Miss_Nox »

Noraf

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 08:17:38 AM »
I've never heard anyone complain about completionism being wrong in this game. Since the setup of skill levels allows you to have every skill equal to your level there's no reason players wouldn't want to max stats. It's not like other games that give you X skill or stat points per level and let you assign them, so there are no "builds" nor any benefit to focusing on any specific skills. There's even the debate about low scavenge vs. high scavenge in regards to scavenge missions. For a long time, the most important skills to max were duel (for protection) and trader (for resources) but once SH skirmishes are available all skills will be factored in to determine victors. From what I saw once that was originally revealed, that was when a lot of players started pushing for more balanced/max skills. I can't speak for everyone, but that was my perception, and was certainly a strong factor in my own push to be "complete."

I don't think it's right to say that the latest update was influenced by "whiners." The petition thread was lengthy, involved, and had feedback from dozens of players from all viewpoints. The devs did an excellent job in finding a good compromise. There was no specific sampling of players who could participate, you just had to log in to the forum. So anyone who believes that "the whiners ruined PSC" can only blame themselves for not participating in the discussion and/or offering a better argument or solution.

Miss Nox, I remember being below 30th level and easily being able to upgrade any new gear I acquired quickly. Once you hit the mid 30s and above, the cost of upgrades skyrockets. That was one of the issues brought up in the petition thread. Upgrading regular (non-mission/non-credit) gear gained at level 35/36 and above costs over 20k supplies just moving from class 1 to class 2. To give insight into my situation, I am level 36, less than 100 xp from 37. I have 2.5x trader level in outposts (1.5x in 48 hrs for resources, about 2/3 of which are supply generators, and 1x in 3 hours for leveling) and my scavenge level is currently 29. Every other day when my 48hrs come up, I can afford 1 upgrade level on a single weapon, 2 if I cash in a few food bars and aim for my lowest item in need. From the leveling, missions, and new credit weapons I have 9 items needing to be built up a total of 35 upgrade levels. If I level again, I add 2 new weapons and 10 more levels to that list. That means I need to camp for 35 days to finally be back at full upgrade. That was one of my biggest gripes in the petition. Not putting you on the firing range, just letting you know what's ahead; if you haven't spent credits on buying food bar storage, I would suggest you do and begin stockpiling.

FYI, Zelda is not an RPG. I love Zelda, but it's not an RPG.

Andigator

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 09:53:59 AM »
I believe the upcoming changes that resulted from the petition/brainstorm threads were meant to address this issue.

From now on, many missions will allow completion from skills other than hunt.  So if you need to max your scavenge, you can complete missions with scavenge.  Then move on to heal, and finally level once everything is maxed. 

Subliminal Kid

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 11:18:15 AM »
It really comes down to whether or not, as a player, you give a shit about the Leaderboards.

Drachen

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 01:35:03 PM »
This is an excellent thread.

I don't have OCD that I'm aware of. But I need to fill those bars up!

Guys. There's too many people to accommodate so whining will happen. I'm all for changes. Be it more content or a brainstorming shift. Constant hunt missions were getting stale like Sub Kid mentioned earlier in other posts. These brainstorming ideas breathe new life to our beloved game and at the same time a hope to keep people that have stuck around for awhile.

Change is good. Completionist is good, or however you want to play the game. It is YOUR game. As long as fun is happening then all else is noise. Tune it out.

And Miss Nox; excellent post. I don't get why you'd think someone would go after you. Let me know if they do. I want new villains in my life...  ;)
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ProEJockey

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »
I don't think, or am not aware of anyway, anybody complaining that 'completionism' is wrong.

I hate the thought that the dev's will dumb down the game for all because some refuse to change their playstyle

Just sayin.

I believe the upcoming changes that resulted from the petition/brainstorm threads were meant to address this issue.

And I love that the devs have allowed all playing styles now.  This is a solved issue.  My issue is just trying to understand another point of view.

It really comes down to whether or not, as a player, you give a shit about the Leaderboards.

Not one little bit do I care about leaderboards.  I just want to have fun.  It is as simple as that.

Subliminal Kid

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 09:27:55 PM »
Not one little bit do I care about leaderboards.  I just want to have fun.  It is as simple as that.

I applaud you wholeheartedly.

Dauntless

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 08:58:21 AM »
I don't think, or am not aware of anyway, anybody complaining that 'completionism' is wrong.

I hate the thought that the dev's will dumb down the game for all because some refuse to change their playstyle

Just sayin.

Played lad. You have found the quote button and discovered the art of taking 1 line in one post in one thread and bringing it completly out of context to massage your own e-penis in the vain hope that you will aquire that extra length you so badly want. So lets put it back into context for you

...So certainly you don't need to be a completist, its not necessarily the 'best' way to go through the game.

So yes there are many ways to go through the game, and nobody has any right to say the way you or I or anybody else chooses to go through the game is wrong, its personal choice.

The issue ( i feel) is that due to lots of additional content, completists couldn't play the way they wanted. So completists complained that their play style was not good enough or rather not compatible with the evolution of the game.

But wait! That was said AFTER that lovely little line you have found. O noes! ok ok lets go further back in time stay with me on this magical mystery tour

...What people hate (by people i mean me and a few of my alts) is the sheer cost imbalance of upgrades. Millions of $$$ lying around and no supplies.

At level 48 char level 44 hunt im getting like $10k - $15k per energy hunt. At level 40 scav im lucky to get 3k supplies per scour without a bonus item equipped (i like the dropped bonus scav items give us moar plz!)

If i was playing without creds, i could just about complete a holiday even in the given time period, but i couldn't upgrade my gear before the next event. Without a shit load of drinks.  Bump up the supplies return massively. Or reduce the cost of upgrades massively

Hang on! wait.. did I identify the COMMON problem regardless of playstyle? Did I possibly infer the is a basic game imbalance regardless of playstyle? Hmmm

Sone people can complete games on hard settings. Some people are blinkered and stuggle on medium settings. Can you please all of the people all of the time? Doubtful....it is the knock on effects of the holiday events. Energy drink consumption / energy requirements and the costs of upgrading weapons.

Yes that certainly seems to be what I am implying! So shit the bed could this actually be true that regardless of playstyle there was a basic game function that was unbalanced for all?

Struggling to see where I (or anyone?) have said completionist is wrong. Sure it was incompatible with the evolution of the game but certainly not wrong and a problem that completionists had is also a problem that the naysayers have. To that end MDI have done a remarkable job of accomodating completionists, adressing upgrades (hey if you can scav to complete a mission your gonna have a truck load of supplies) and keeping yummy new content coming in with sotryline arcs. Once again two thumbs up MDI.

SO

I want to be able to understand both sides of this issue.

Ok lets look at both sides of the issues

I think that a proper balance can be struck between keeping things fresh by issuing new missions, encouraging players to purchase and spend credits, and addressing the above concerns. For example, an ability to simply opt out of acquiring experience during these missions would be great. We could still be required to spend energy on hunts (thus incentivizing us to buy energy drinks), but we wouldn't have to level.

Why can this be an issue?

Also hardcore players need us all to hurry up and go hardcore to make the hardcore arena bigger and better. So there is natural opposition to completists in that respect, the slow style of completists is limiting the fun the hardcore players can have. The game shouldn't of course force people to go hardcore juut to suit the high end credit buyers (though I can see why MDI might be inclined to cater a game around the 'whales') but i also feel a lot of the 'fear' of hardcore lies with the completists as they are trying to play a 'perfect' game and there is a fear that going into hardcore could disrupt that 'perfect' game. Ironically, most hardcore players are also completists.

So for some, the very fact some people are not levelling. Is an issue. The higher levels were (at the time of posting) basically player generated content due to the death of the storyline, and with people not levelling, the player generated content is scarce
Moving on.

If I want to duel and not get owned, I can do that

...for instance very rarely have all my weapons upgraded and my current duel is like 73% win ratio (all time) and its only that low due to long periods of duelling toughs for fame. So certainly you don't need to be a completist

Note. You do not need to be a completist. That is not to say completists are wrong fullstop

If I want to have all of my weapons upgraded before I get new ones, I can do that, my scavenge and trade skills are maxed.

Can you? how... is that with lots of energy drinks? The issue as discussed seemed to be most people couldnt get their new weaps upgraded before the next event came along

The thing that really bothers me personally, is the not having any chance to upgrade my weapons as I upgrade my player level.

^^ For instance

So what was this rift between completists and naysayers?

Now the recent updates have solved many of these issues.  For that I am extremely grateful.  But recent events and discussions in GC, the forums, and even in our own SH have me confused.  Why is there such an aversion to completionists?  Why is it considered weird or the wrong way to play?  I'm just confused and would like to understand it better.

Your personal experience seems to be of naysayers whereas...

These special missions are becoming too frequent, and they are detracting from my, and many others', enjoyment of the game. Many of us are completists, and the idea of skipping a special mission is more or less unthinkable. But these missions force us to level. Then, as we are trying to catch up our skills, a new mission comes along. There is no respite. ... Those of you who share my sentiments - and I know from my travels that you are many

His personal experience seems to be of completionists who werent happy that completionism had become incpmpatible with the evolution of the game.
Though thats two perspectives both from the completionist camp. So lets look at one who looked at it a little differently

While I have rather enjoyed be forced to level up because of events I am ready for the hunting to stop just because it gets boring after awhile.

So some people don't mind forced levelling. But they did mind the repitition of it.

Which brings me to this. All of that was done from quoting existing posts (see what i did there re: repitition). If you say you want a discussion, hows about you actually read, analyse, reason with what people are saying, and leave the epenis extension for beginners kit at home.

Though considering you are the person who declared a credit strike in your demands for a repair all button BEFORE you gave the devs any chance whatsoever of reviewing and commenting on that issue, maybe I shouldn't expect too much from you.

Just sayin....

If what I say upsets you, I do not apologize. I do not believe in encouraging stupidity.

ProEJockey

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 09:35:37 AM »
You didnt have to make that an ugly personal attack.  I'm sorry you feel that way.  I did not mean to take your quote out of context.  That is what I remembered you saying at the time, so I looked for it.  My mistake.

There, I apologized.  I was not whipping out an e-penis.  I was seriously trying to have a discussion.  I have learned that if I want to honestly state my feelings I need to keep it out of forums.

Thank you all for your time, mods can close this discussion for all i care.  I'm done.

Eppie

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 07:59:38 AM »
Yeah, both of you were being jerks :p but it's the internet - ya gotta be careful on how you quote Pro, because if you give people a reason to launch an all out attack, most likely they will. 'tis good to see an apology though. That be rare nowadays on the net. :)

Back to the original question: How would the Devs like us to play?

The Devs want you to play the game in the fashion that brings you the most joy (ie: come back n' keep playing, and quite possibly, spending some cash as a thank you) without totally bamboozlin' the joy from other players. Mind you, the devs don't want to be the ones bamboozlin' the joy either. So for now, focus on what gets you to open that app for another 'quick peek' before bed. Happiness of the player, both paying and non-paying, is always key for the longevity of any iphone app. This is the type of game where 'oops, I didn't level up heal' isn't going to totally **** your character up and force you to restart from scratch. What I like about PSC is that there are opportunities to bounce back if you decided you did too much on one thing and want to realign your attention onto another. [The issue with completists is that they couldn't bounce their attention back to where they wanted to put it and had to keep it on Kill Monster > Upgrade > Repeat.]

There is no discrimination against those who choose to take their own route (from what that I've seen) and there really shouldn't be. I've been MIA for awhile, but if there is any currently.. I can only laugh. Who has the right to say how my character is played? GC and HC? nope. I'll take my sweet time. My time, my money, my play style. SH? If a SH is putting on that sort of pressure (without making it clear from the get go of their goals), it'd be clear that wouldn't be the SH for me to stay in. There'd be plenty of other SHs that prize other merits.

Just have fun. It's a game. O_O
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Drachen

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 08:46:47 AM »
...Change is good. Completionist is good, or however you want to play the game. It is YOUR game. As long as fun is happening then all else is noise. Tune it out...

Just have fun. It's a game. O_O

I said that aleardy. See what I did there?

Joking!  I like eppie. Just wanted to bring this back to a fun discussion.

Key word. F-U-N
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Lessifer

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Re: If completionists are so wrong in this game...
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 04:42:25 PM »
I think I'm a semi-completionist, maybe a partialist?

I like having all of the weapons, and all of the titles I can get, and I attempt to upgrade all of my gear as much as possible before leveling, sometimes I succeed sometimes I don't. As for skills, I almost always have duel and heal maxed, the others... well, they are slowly making their way up to my player level, but I'm not going to miss out on an event just so they don't get further out of synch.  Just my opinion but, maxing skills is nice but you can always catch up later, I'd rather not wait a year for the event weapon to come around again.

Just how I play, and it's fun for me :D
Therefore, Lessifer's answer is right.